chookwatch watch

watching the watchers

About

It’s all about keeping our eyes on the people who criticise good things. Criticism is fine, and has its place, but who checks out the checkers-out?

Anyway. We’re just looking!

If you contribute please be civil, relevant and use valid arguments devoid of aggressive outbursts or innuendo.

In short – know what you’re talking about before you say it, and say it with humility.

Please!

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26 thoughts on “About

  1. Good on you, AJ.

    C3churchwatch watch is a not-for-prophet organisation, not for false prophets, that is, although I’m all for Biblical prophecy, which is, in scriptural terms, for encouragement, edification and comfort of the saints, not to be used to pull down or discourage! C3churchwatch has set itself up as a prophet-of-doom site, predicting and even promoting the demise of C3 and its leadership, under guise of advocating change.

    But change comes from active listening and productive dialogue, not false accusation and condemnation.

    We have no issue with criticism when it is supporting positive change. It can be productive. Nor do we have a problem with apologetics, the defence of the gospel, correction of error, and pointing out where an offence may have been committed.

    But where there is a purely antagonistic attitude towards a group of Christians, however large or small, which promotes bitterness and strife or sows discord amongst brethren, then we feel it is relevant to speak up and point out the errors of those who falsely claim error.

    Of course, this opens me up to the same judgment, but that is the nature of criticism, isn’t it. If you judge you will be judged with the same judgment. This means the criticism you do level needs to carry the weight of justifiable evidence.

    I do not see, in the articles posted here, that c3churchwatch has proven their point, of produced relevant evidence, or, in some cases, even used a just measure in their judgment. This I have pointed out.

    They are welcome to comment here and defend their position, a privilege they have refused us, provided they do so in a civil and open manner which allows for a Biblical response.

    Many of their articles do not use Biblical principles, and yet they claim I have not used Biblical principles on their site to provide an argument which refutes their claims, and, on this basis, they have disallowed me, under a pseudonym I used, access to their comments, which demonstrates either a fear of being proven wrong, or a reluctance to be corrected, or desire to put forward their negative views of C3 and its leadership regardless of the opinion of any other, in other words, they do not want to be challenged, even when in error.

    They now claim they are being persecuted, which is a gross exaggeration of a blatant untruth, when the reality is that they are being called out for their sloppy investigative skills, constant use of innuendo and evidence-free reporting.

    Meanwhile they pretend they remain anonymous to protect their families as if I might do harm to them, which is not only a ludicrous suggestion, considering I am resident on the other side of the planet, but also defamatory, since I have not used deliberate violence on a single person in my life, and nor would I.

    They anonymously criticise people who, then, cannot speak face to face with them in their defence. This is so unbiblical that it is on the wrong side of any heavenly justice.

    As for me, my name is Steve, I am a member of good C3 church, and I act on my own initiative without prompting from any other C3 person. I do not officially represent anybody or any body, I have not been asked to do this, nor has any other C3 person been informed, officially or unofficially, that I do this. I act independently.

    I just don’t like the way that c3churchwatch unjustly target godly people.

      1. Hi Timothy. I’m very sorry about what has happened at C3Ashville. I do not know all of the story, but I realise it has been a tragic journey for many people. If you are a former member I hope you can forgive those who have hurt or offended you and your family and find a place where you can recover and enjoy being a Christian in a strong fellowship once again.

        I understand that the pain takes time to heal sometimes, and, having been through a few things, albeit not with C3, I know that the only way through is to lean on Christ and cast every care unto the Father. He will heal. He will vindicate. He will restore.

        Cast your burden on the LORD, And He shall sustain you; He shall never permit the righteous to be moved.
        Psalms 55:22

        Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.
        Philippians 4:6-9

        He will lift you up if you can cast your cares unto Him.

        Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you in due time, casting all your care upon Him, for He cares for you.
        1 Peter 5:6-7

        Every blessing to you and your family.

  2. I find it hillarious that despite your constant criticism and mockery (it starts at the top and works its way down), you don’t even allow comments on YOUR posts, something Chookwatch allows, even for those who disagree, even if they get criticised – something I anticipate you’d do to me. As you do, remember I used to attend and was heavily involved at c3, so I know exactly what’s going on, the good, the bad and the ugly. Why don’t you do an exit poll of those who have left?

    So anyway your refusal to let others post just proves you have credibility whatsoever.

      1. If you dig deep enough you’ll find issues anywhere, including in local churches.

        That’s why we need Christ. We mess up. We need Him because He leads us into all truth through the Spirit. We don’t need dedicated blog critics to tell us we sometimes fail. We need Christ.

        But, yes, all local churches have some issue or other. Even yours. Creating a dedicated site to continually defame them, however, is way over the top. Creating four sites is manic.

        Knowing what the problems are is one thing. Knowing how to deal with them is quite another.

        If you want to add to the problems or highlight them from a distance go ahead, but you are not being helpful if you have no solutions. If you want to try to fix them graciously, then you have my support.

        But if you want to be part of a gossip system or backbite, or sow discord simply because you can, or destroy people’s reputations with false reports then you are an enemy of Christ.

        Are you saying that you and the chookwatchers are perfect enough to go without the same scrutiny you apply to others?

    1. 1. Chookwatch doesn’t allow very much criticism of their blog at all. It is selective at best.

      They allow all of your comments because you basically agree with their line of attack. What criticism they do allow is pounced upon by the gatekeepers, who are astonishingly unchristian and unforgiving. They make things up about people and think they are telling the truth, hence the articles on narrative and memes on here.

      Their sites are very heavily moderated and censored, commenters are demonised and have their reputations trashed with untrue claims. If you could see the moderated comments you would be shocked how much censorship is taking place. Many of the comments in moderation are a defence against the ad hominem hurled by the chookwatchers at commenters.

      2. You mention ‘constant mockery’. In fact, I have only posted eight articles this year. Eight. In a year. Less than one a month.

      Compare this to the chookwatchers’ exaggeratedly growing list of articles. Do you realise they have produced thirty-five articles across their sites this month alone? 35. In a month. 24 of them about one ministry. And there is still time for more before the end of the month. Now that is constant. Obsessively constant. Neurosis. Phobia.

      3. I pulled back on comments because there were people who wanted to use this site to take to the chookwatchers, which I wasn’t happy with. One went after mama chookwatcher through her family, so I put a stop to it. I defended one of the chookwatchers from people who do not like what they are doing and are very upset by their tactics.

      For this I received mockery at the chookwatch sites. That is what they are like to people they don’t like or understand.

      I am considering whether to allow comments again, and even if I should allow the removed comments to resurface. They are still available. But I don’t have the luxury of the same amount of time the chookwatchers do, or the inclination, to continually read and reply to commenters who come here from a negative, critical site, some of whom merely argue for the sake of it with long winded, excruciating, yawn-worthy lectures.

      I have a life to live for Christ. Blogging isn’t it. I prefer to be telling people the good news face to face, frankly.

      4. This site is very much a tongue in cheek response to their continuous assault on good people. I don’t know if you noticed or not, but it is not totally serious. It is satire aimed at defusing their constant put-down of people who are doing their best to serve Christ.

      Tell me something, have you ever seen anything but complaints and bad reports on the chookwatch sites? Do they ever commend their targets for anything at any time? Think about it. It’s nonstop, obsessive defaming of Christian churches.

      5. Some critical sites, such as Apprising Ministries, do not allow any comments on their posts. It is not unusual, or wrong.

      6. If you are unable to comment here, how is it we are having this conversation?

  3. Steve

    Thank you for being kind enough to get back to me. My iPhone decided to crash whilst typing my reply so I’ll have to do it again. And no that’s not a “sign”.

    “But if you want to be part of a gossip system or backbite, or sow discord simply because you can, or destroy people’s reputations with false reports then you are an enemy of Christ.”

    Firstly, I have read Proverbs, which talks about gossip etc; I often type up a reply on Chookwatch, only to not post it at the last minute, because of my conscience. I’m not saying that mine is right – my threshold of “gossip” is obviously much lower than others. I personally am not out to destroy people’s reputation, and I will NOT present a false report. Proverbs 3:30 – “Do not accuse anyone for no reason – when they have done you no harm”. If something has affected me personally, or if I offer a different interpretation to what is being preached/taught etc somewhere, I’ll voice that. I know there’s a website suggesting Phil is a Satanist. Now that is ridiculous. Going after Mama Chookwatch offline is ridiculous, unless of course there has been some physical interaction. But I don’t know about that – so I will stay out of it. What she has preached on occasion, I don’t agree with, and in one instance I had a go at it – not her, her sermon that made me angry. That doesn’t mean she’s all bad; others might and do go further.

    So to tidy up, at Chookwatch everyone has a different threshold. Some, who have been around for 30+ years and seen things from the beginning, or around churches for that long, have a much higher threshold. Others have less. But it is on their own conscience if there are going to be an enemy of Christ or just voicing their concern from their experiences.

    “If you want to add to the problems or highlight them from a distance go ahead, but you are not being helpful if you have no solutions. If you want to try to fix them graciously, then you have my support.”

    That won’t happen mate. It’s called, in this instance, the c3 culture (do you want me to elaborate?) Yes it starts out good. It did for me. Then, depending on how far you reach in, or how much leaks, or how much the push for money is, can be bad. Many take the bad they know of with the good. I did for a while. And I will admit, the good most often outweighs the bad. But when it keeps going and going, something has to give. For me it did.

    “You have my support”?

    Start with an anonymous c3 exit poll. Some, like me, would give you an honest answer, being particularly forgiving (figuratively, not literally as there is nothing to forgive about); others I know, however, would not be so kind. Ex-leaders, ex-staff. Those who have lost their marriages in part due to the church (yes, there are some). Oh, and if you want to know why so many people “hide” behind screen names, like Phil has always criticised, I suggest you look through Chookwatch to see. I’m not repeating myself again. Besides, imaging leaving your real name and saying, “Hey, the music was self-centred”, or “Hey, I didn’t like the way your family got plumb jobs” – how do you think that would go for the person and their family when you run into them at Warringah Mall? Besides, I have a feeling people in leadership know who I am, so I am preparing to be ignored at the shops, at school, to be given blank expressions, or from some leaders in particular – to be challenged. Or the exit poll could work the opposite….”Hey, your pastor rang me up and told me based on my building fund giving I should give x amount this next fund!”. When did I give you permission to be my financial advisor? (And yes that’s a true story).

    “Are you saying that you and the chookwatchers are perfect enough to go without the same scrutiny you apply to others?”

    Scrutinise me. Go through my posts. Refer the first part of this post which is my criteria filter when I post. Remember (as Paul said), I too have the Holy Spirit. He rules my conscience, and no I don’t always obey, but I try. Other Christians do too, even some of the most Bible-living Christians I know, yet their disposition is one of Paul x100000. It is possible to maintain extreme debate yet not sow discord or gossip; yes there have been some on Chookwatch who have crossed the line.

    If you look through the archives I think I may have had an honest discussion with you once which ended quite respectfully. though I can’t remember where or when. My tentacles often have minds of their own.
    God bless.

    1. I’m happy to discuss things with you Squiddy. You’re not my enemy, and, even if you were, I’m commanded to love you.

      I don’t think you have ulterior motives, and perhaps you have been through some things which have upset you. It happens to everyone in churches after a while. It’s not all a bed of roses. Read the New Testament. They were constantly dealing with stuff.

      I do object to the way in which chookwatch is run. Their attitude towards people who disagree with them or point out their own mistakes is worse than the claims they make about their target groups.

      Have you noticed the way they themselves choose to remain anonymous but are more than happy to reveal the names of people who comment anonymously but they don’t like? That says it all, really. No grace. No mercy. No hope.

      I’m very sorry you have been through difficult times in your local church. I have been very happy with the local churches we have been involved with on the whole. To me it’s a bit like family life with warts and all.

      There are always things which crop up which show how immature some of us can be at times as Christians, but that is where we all need to learn how to grow up in Christ, show maturity, forgive, ask forgiveness, try to put things right, and work on the log in our own eye before we pull on the speck in other’s.

      As for finances, well, it’s always wise to follow the instruction in the Word. We determine what we will give before we even arrive at church. That way we can give cheerfully and without compulsion. Getting upset over an offering message is pointless. We’re not under law, so why be bound?

      Give as you are led. Give to God. End of. Once it is given, walk away and thank God for the privilege of being able to give anything. He is the Blesser. We give to Him for His purposes. That way we are blessed by Him alone. He gets the glory. We are free.

      I did have a conversation with you, and it was reasonable. Unfortunately not all chookwatch contributors have the same attitude you do.

      I’m OK with comments here, but I don’t see why I should put up with abuse in my own living room, so I can shut the door on the ranters if I choose.

      You’re always welcome if you merely want to comment and talk things over, as with anyone.

  4. Hey Steve
    In regards to today’s post about Reformed Chooks – I reserve my opinion. Though be advised I am ex-c3 and have a long “Pentecostal” history coming off the back of a mildly traditional upbringing. Therefore I’m not familiar with the whole reformed/Calvanist etc debate, although apparently some of my beliefs would be classed as non-cessationalist. And I know this is polar opposite to many on Chookwatch, and they are aware of my stance.

    Therefore I try not to label myself, other than what a denomination may pin on me – pin the tail on the donkey style. Born again Christian sounds much better.

    1. Hi Squids,
      I’m happy to acknowledge your stance and the difference between your theology and that of the chookwatchers.

      Of course, being logical, commenters are likely to be of a number of persuasions – from Pentecostal to charismatic to calathumpian, evangelical, pagan or atheist.

      It’s the site itself which declares its resources, recommended sites, churches and theology, and it is clearly majoring on Reformed theology as its chosen option.

      Chookwatcher tried to make the claim that they were not predominantly Reformed in their influences, which is not borne out by the featured resources on their site, which is massively Reformed promoting. As they say themselves, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it probably is.

      If you’d like to reproduce your comment on the relevant thread I’ll acknowledge it there also. Sorry, I forgot to open up comments, but that is now fixed.

    2. So now they remove Q’s comments altogether whilst leaving their own. And they try to label Q as a troll, giving the following definition:

      “a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.”

      Whilst it was clear Q was being satirical, there is no question that he was exposing chookwatcher hypocrisy and bias using humour. There was nothing inflammatory, extraneous or off-topic about what he had to say on that thread.

      In fact, it was chookwatcher who challenged Q to give an opinion on the recent Jordanian pilot’s murder, which Q answered, but which had nothing to do with the thread, and was certainly a provocative comment by chookwatcher.

      Neither was commenter ‘hokeypokey’s disgraceful claim to a comparison between Brian Houston and Jim Jones, which chookwatcher allowed, and which Q rightly condemned, anything to do with the post or thread, yet it remains on thread, unchallenged by chookwatcher.

      Several other comments are unrelated to the thread, yet remain. The only disruption to the thread was internal.

      What Q did provoke was a barrage of contention from those who support the chookwatcher stance. Q was removed because he hit the target with his astute logic and unwavering determination to continue with a good attitude despite some heavy hitting by some of the collective.

      It’s time the chookwatchers learned the difference between trolls and genuine commenters who are pointing out their bias, unkind attitude and continuous verballing of fellow Christians. The only discord being sown is their own.

      I’ve known Q on various blogs for a few years now and I can say that, although we do not always agree on everything, he is an honest and gracious commenter with a friendly demeanour, and often correct in his exposure of hypocrisy. As he said in the now removed comments, there have been times when he has stood for the female chookwatcher on other sites against hostile religionists. He is the last person I would expect to see banned from a site. He is no troll, that’s for sure.

      The chooks are out of control!

  5. C3cluckwatch I think is run by a guy called “joke [alert]” who uses the alias “fergusson macray” as well sometimes (for their prolific posting neither seem to post to each other).

    It seems the guy is a former Sydney pastor in mid/late 30’s. Be nice if it’s him that runs it to be up front about it.

    1. There are a number of anonymous contributors to the sites, especially as moderators, some known to those who are in the know, including the administrator.

      Whilst we have screen shots of a named person on the very first posts, and as the unavoidable real name Facebook administrator, he seems, nevertheless, to go to great lengths to deny current involvement.

      The main man has never, to my knowledge, been a pastor, but the age range and location appears to be correct.

      I agree he should be upfront about it.

  6. Thanks for your response (it was deleted, but not fussed by it). I wish they took the advice from the guy they idolize, James White. If he knew how they were conducting themselves he’d sock it to them….without reservation.

      1. Cheers Steve. Ta for the dialogue. Oh the irony is that the “churchwatchers” don’t really attend a church, because if they did, there pastor would give email a clip round the ear hole, regardless what side of the fence they are on.

        Must go, chickens are plucked, oven is on, time to roast some chickens again.

  7. Yaaaaaaaawn….

    Ok time to pull myself up off this ocean floor….couldn’t have been bothered reaching a tentacle up to the keyboard for a while…any Kong updates yet?

    So that naming post got deleted? That name and a good c3 sermon dissection went hand in hand, I think.

    I picked up a dolphin’s sonar that said there was some movement at the station….well one anyway. Big shoes to fill, but i think it might be good. Don’t think all can be tarred with the same brush.

    1. Who is all? Do you know? What with the dolphin’s sonar and all.

      According to cluckwatch logic guilt by association is the main weapon in their critical armoury, so surely they will be judged by the same measurement with which they judge others. I do have scripture for this.

      Besides, if they all use the same pseudonym, aren’t they tarring themselves with the same brush?

      1. No no ol matey, I’m referring to a well-known church. And suggesting the possibility of the Pringle-style model not being as rigid with new leadership – if it’s possible at all.

      2. I think you might be somewhat behind the times, there, squiddy. C3’s moved on quite a lot since you or the chooks were last around.

      1. Yeah noticed that ol mate Phil pringle dropped by for a good ol ‘like’ there Steve. Low tide does uncover things on the beach you didnt notice before.

        Chicken roast is done, time to tuck in for a feed, will whatch out for bones, don’t wanna choke.

      2. I must be older than I thought….maybe paralysis setting in….I mean that at a high profile c3 the senior minister is moving on. It’s recent news, I thought.
        I haven’t been up to complain about much as the Irate Pirate has been blasting his canons left right and centre and there’s no use joining in for now.
        Oh I think the Pacific current is here….God bless….

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